Talk:TingWiki/ting26
From S23Wiki
[edit] ting26, sunday, 15th of May, 18:00 UTC (20:00 CEST)
See the article-page for the ting26_discussion text-inclusion please.
from server: is-root.de, port: 32123
the plain text page used for the inclusion is http://is-root.de/moonedit/ting26_talk
[edit] The ting results are elaborated further on
[edit] ting26_talk moon-edit page inclusion
ting26_talk
2005-05-15 SUNDAY 18:00 UTC
participants:
* lk: LionKimbro
* ma: Mattis Manzel
* xtof : Christophe Ducamp
"`~-,._.,-~'"`~-,._.,-~'"`~-,._.,-~'"`~-,._.,-~'"`~-,._.,-~'"`~-,._.,-~'
== Setting Up WikiWoodstockIssues ==
ma: hoe!
lk: Oy! Mattis! {:D}=
ma: flammifer? As far as I remember yes, but he's not loged in. Or you are exporting and greet outwards, possible. Anyhow. Nice proposals for the tech-team.
em: hello :) yes I'm Emile
ma: Now he is, hi Emile.
em is on a windows virtual desktop ... it's all uuuugglllyyyyy
ma: But do you hear me typing is the question.
em: no, no sound :-P
lk: Everything seems back to normal. (My computer went all wacky, after Sakura started typing. :) )
ma: I reboot in windows, this is unbearbable without the sound. brb. No I have all irc channels open.
lk: okay.
em : Your daughter already knows how to screw up a system ?
lk: Oh, she's known that since the day she was born. {;D}= We call her "Kaijyuu," or "monster."
lk: But, we should- oh, wait, there's still 7 minutes 'till 11:00.
ma: Just prepare a tea.
em: then starting now may be rude
lk: Maybe we *should* start now, though- the OpenSpace folk have a saying, "When it starts is the right time to begin."
lk: em, do you have anything to add to the agenda? Do you have any agenda items you want to talk about in particular today?
em: Well, I'm always interested in OnlienDebate and WikiDrama, but that can stay on CommunityWiki. I *am* interesting in intercommunitycooperation from the debate perspective (getting groups who disagree to talk together), but also just from the "normal" perspective (getting groups who agree to talk would already be nice ^^)
lk: Okay, let's put "DeepDifference communities" under InterCommunityCooperation.
(tumbleweed rolls across)
lk: Mattis, are you back?
em: By the way, (not *extremely* relevant), it seems Nekeme (game dev. association) has a meeting on WikiWoodstock day. June 11th. (A "nekemeeting" ^^)
lk: eh?!?
lk: ah, ah, I see. I personally consider it relevant. Have you talked with them about WikiWoodstock?
em: Well, seems to me the WikiWoodstock idea is a few hours old, no ? I prefer to wait for it to mature, so I just mentioned it on Irc ^^
ma: back. The idea is this noon. Pushing a little to mature it is no mistake, I guess. Just as lion says, the schedule is pretty tight, but I think rough&dirty is the better way. Make sure it is not 1.5 millions participating but make also sure that this in no unique thing but a beginning of a regular, or periodical event.
lk: {;D}= I sense Mattis is right. (Pushing gets us off our butt.)
em: (If it wasn't rough&dirty it would be WikiG7 or WikiWorldSummit or something ^^
lk:
xtof : hi all. Lost : I've no sound on this fucking machine ;-)
lk: Oh! Christophe! Good to see you!
em: coucou christophe :) j'ai pas de son non plus
ma: hi xtof, me no sound either, It's horrible without sound. Agree.
em: Hmm, at CommunityWiki we have something like a forum but "hand made", here we have something like irc but "hand made".
lk: (laugh)
ma: mean the date pages on CW?
em: the little icons too ^^
lk: Okay- is there- what do we have to add to the ideas expressed on CW:WikiWoodstock? I guess- there's what's involved in preparation, and stuff, assigning tasks.
ma: having people to help is the first step. Lion seems to be willing to take over some technical part.
lk: Or is that premature, or..?
lk: Aye. I can do part of the tech support, but we'll need another person or so. Ideally 3, so when there's an event I want to go to, (or that one of the others wants to go to,) the rest can cover. We really need people to be on-the-spot available. It's no fun to go to a conference that's broken. :)
ma: thinking about who could care a bit for wireless issues for example. Concerning translation I think Luigi and me do take our roll.
lk: Wireless? (I was imagining this is people at home, but,...)
ma: workshops, help on friday for setup for those using it.
lk: I'm thinking things like: "I'm trying to connect to the IRC server, but can't figure out how." or, "This software isn't working for me, what can we do?"
lk: I think the goal is to have everyone technically set and ready by Friday night, but we'll probably need obvious support lines during it too, in case something happens on the spot.
lk: I'm also thinking, we need:
* An initial set of wiki pages, to direct people, and to be a place for people to collaborate their schedules and topics. (In OpenSpace, this is the giant white sheets on enthe walls.)
* Outreach - we have to advertise this thing.
* ...?
em: I may be of help by being in a different time zone ^^
lk: True, true! Which tasks?
em: er, support ? Live answers on irc ? (outreach and stuff isn't time critical)
xtof : em could we take in charge the french support ?
em: OK :) (I wouldn't be too hopeful for having to use any esperanto or chinese ^^)
xtof : you'll take in charge the asian timezone and I'll make my own to support the european timezone ;-)
lk: I would think that ideal would be Skype + MoonEdit. MoonEdit for taking the notes, and Skype for talking. (Actually, I'm not entirely sure why we aren't doing that right now,... {;D}=) TeamSpeak can support like, 20 people to a room, real-time voice. But maybe we should ease our technicaen:l requirements a bit, (lots of issues with voice,) and just go straight interactive text.
ma: I'd like to - early - extend the WikiWoodstock to arts too. A streamed skype-jam-session for the WikiWoodstock's days is my ambition.
em : Hmm, Skype is all hashed when I use it ('cause I go through the firewall) - I hope it's better for others ^^
lk: (writing in ting26_document)
lk: We could also set up a Jabber white board {:)}= (Coccinella) Actually, it's kind of broken software... Better not. There's got to be some good white boarding software out there, though.
lk: Doesn't it take like 1-2 seconds for sound to propagate over Skype? (I would think that would screw up music,...) Maybe like repetitive looped techno. {:D}= I would think that would be the best bet for collaborating music online.
em: what would be best, skype, or techno ? (I imagine techno ^^)
lk: {;D}=
xtof : one day we'll invite Bill Christie, an american guy living in Vendée(fr) even if we could all be fan of digital music. We could be fan of baroque. Digital arts could conquer OldGeneration... Think it as a Transgeneration Transmind.
ma: open a second window with ting26_document, please.
lk: Let's consider the high level tasks; So far, we have: on-line tech support, translators, setting up wiki pages, outreach.
lk: I can make a wiki, or we could just use an OddWiki. I suppose it's a matter of how fancy we want to get. I don't think we need fancy; We can just: Set up an OddWiki, and make a nice graphic to put on the front page.
ma: informing people on channels and blogs and wikis when a respresentative presentation of the idea is done - might be in few days. I can do some work there. Maybe even press. Wikipedia is the most important source for participants, I suppose. WikiWoodstock includes and welcomes people from wikipedia. wiki-beginners too. Sandboxing-workshops for people first trying out wiki, maybe Friday late or saturday morning? And again in between, maybe even standby-sandoxing-help-team, so that people who wanna join in get nice help from the very first moment they write in wiki. This welcoming attitude is very important I think.
agree about the wiki not having to be fancy, lion.
en: I think just having the possibility of setting up a "special" wiki if it's really needed is enough (i.e., knowing how to migrate from oddwiki)
lk: I think it's really needed, and here is specificly why- you want something that looks like this:that says:
---------------------------------------------------------------
SATURDAY SUNDAY
9:00 AM -- OPENING 9:00 AM -- OPENING
12:00 PM -- SESSIONS 12:00 PM -- SESSIONS
#blahblah - MachineCodeBlocks
specification party (da dee dah)
#foo - Blah blah
#bar - Blah blah 3:00 PM -- SESSIONS
3:00 PM -- SESSIONS
#inter - Inter-Community
Cooperation
6:00 PM -- SESSIONS
#mcb - MachineCodeBlocks
coding party 9:00 PM -- GROUP CLOSING
9:00 PM -- CLOSING
----------------------------------------------------------------
lk: So, this is the sort of shape of the system that I envision; Perhaps it would be better if we used MoonEdit to arrange the space. CommunityTiedToOneTechnology and all- people will need to horse-trade over the times and topics, and that means they need to be able to converse next to the board that keeps the schedule. While we could technically do this with a combination of IRC and wiki, or IRC and MoonEdit, I think it would annoy people. That said, I think we're going to require everyone to be in IRC, anyways. (Then again, maybe not: Perhaps the only technology in use will be MoonEdit.)
lk: We also need a place for explaining how to get ahold of translators, how to get ahold of tech support, all that stuff. We also need pre-conference pages, that explain about: What kinds of things we're doing, how to set up your tools, ...
lk: I hear somebody else typing, I just don't know where the conversation is at..!
xtof : perhaps in the Venitian Corner ;-)
lk: {;D}= (Where is everybody?)
em is here (er, distracted by Irc)
xtof : here... distracted by the stereo (mick jagger and bill christie)
lk: {;D}=
lk: So, is the general plan good?
en: looks good. I'd stick to irc only if it's explicitely needed (tech support ?)
lk: I think tech support people will need to be available by as many out-of-band channels as possible, including telephone.
ma: A point that never concered up to now is that moon-edit is limited to 14 (if you find the last free color to log in) irc is unlimited (?). How to make different but relating moon-edit session cooperate in real time will hopefully become an issue. By expeorting to wiki and having the wiki-window visible and read when it changes every minute or so. Just in case we want to try to make several dozens or hundreds of people work real time (done producing a full history of the working process).
lk: Perhaps it should be IRC, with optional MoonEdit for the groups that need to take minutes. (I would suspect that would be most groups.) Perhaps we should host two moonedit servers- this one, and one running on my computer.
lk: Well, I think I know how: On the wiki, have pointers to the raw MoonEdit text files. We can divide up groups between the servers when they get full.
em: (how 'bout a "read-only" irc channel for general announcements - to make sure discussion is on moon edit ?)
lk: I don't think we need to automatically put the text onto wiki - you can just hit it straight with a web browser. You configure Apache to serve the Moonedit text file directory, and then everyone can see the current state by hitting "reload."
lk: read-only IRC?
lk: I imagine we should have something like:
#lobby -- entry area, general hang-out space between sessions
#techsupport -- technical assistance
#foo -- (people meeting)
#bar -- (people meeting)
#baz -- (people meeting)
#boz -- (people meeting)
.
.
.
lk: To bad we don't have a MoonEdit AJAX interface. Then we could just say, "Go to this website, and you're in the collaborative session. :)"
ma: seems like we'll have a WikiWoodstock in June. :)
lk: {:D}=
lk: We should bring a close to this topic for this week's Ting. We should probably continue on CW. But before we leave this topic, I'd feel better if we made some commitments. How about:
* We'll use an OddWiki, which LionKimbro will set up a bit.
* LionKimbro will ask MurrayAltheim about maybe making a logo for the event, to be completed in 1 weeks time (from today.) ChristopheDucamp will ask for a logo from LaurentLuntai.
ma: two weeks is far too long. Tomorrow. Else use some woodstock fotos. The one from the stage is great i think. Ok, tranquillo, sorry. ;)
xtof : I'll ask also for a logo to LaurentLunati. We could organize a WikiWoodstock logo competition ?
ma: logo competition is a good idea.
lk: I'm worried- what if both Murray Altheim and Laurnet Lunati make logos? But, I'd rather have Laurent do it, because that will pull in another community- Murray is already in CommunityWiki.
lk: competitions a great idea :)
en (Murphy's Law would say if they both do one, I'll probably have done one too ^^)
lk: Let's see- is there more we should be committing to? Are we going to settle on a date today? (I'm okay with determining date next week.) I don't know if- Emile, do you think NeKeMe members might be interested in coming? (Maybe even just one, beyond yourself?) Perhaps we should make a general call for representatives.
xtof : sorry but i don't know NeKeMe ?
em: xtof, c'est une association qui fait des jeux libres. http://nekeme.net. On est francais ^^
xtof : merci emile ;)
en: I don't know, little respons on irc. mailing lists later ... I'm still not sure exactly how to *describe* WikiWoodstock ^^
lk: I suspect that we should talk with the S23 folk as well, before beginning, as well as FlorianFesti.
lk: Oh! Good point, Emile! We should write up a paragraph explaining the idea. When I get the WikiWoodstock wiki set up, we'll copy the paragraph there, put it on the front page, next to the picture / logo.
lk: You know, SebPaquet is a blogger bigwig- he'd be happy to advertise this. {:)}= He likes wiki a lot.
lk: We should get our description paragraph together first, though. I'll bet dollars to donuts it'll be on Seb's blog page, when he cites it.
em : yup ^^ Had a hard time explaining earlier on irc ^^
lk: Okay, decision time: Do we figure out our description now, or make it on CW over the next week.
xtof : transporter room on cw could be a nice idea ? we have now to refactor our ting26_document to carry it anywhere in any language. I'll try to translate it in french too.
em: I vote, let's try to define it now
lk: Okay. "WikiWoodstock is..." (brainstorming)
* a meeting for anyone and everyone interested in wiki
* a global collaboration-party, (-orgy probably) and not reduced on moon-edit. You can take part without it too.
* a yearly event- a TimeWindow
* a repeating but irregular event. WikiWoodstock2 might come to collaborate and support wikimania 4 - 8. August 2005
* A happening
* a moonedit discovery party
* this year, theme is: InterCommunityCooperation
* A Wiki World Summit ^^
* the World-Wiki-Organization {;D}= nah...
just a sec brb
xtof : let't try a french translation in real time :
* un rendez-vous pour quiconque intéressé par wiki
* un événement annuel - une FenêtreTemps
* un Happening
* une fete de decouverte de Moonedit
* une rave en ligne
* cette année une CoopérationInterCommunauté
* un Sommet Mondial Wiki ^^
em: (I just noticed I had been disconnected from the document mode :-P no wonder nobody was writing)
lk: Oh, Christophe; I always feel so bad- I keep changing pages on the wiki, and then you keep having to synchronize them. We need some code, so that I can signal, "Christophe, I'm changing this one a lot right now," or something, so I don't make more work for you.
xtof : let's speak of translation-joke ;-) I love nomadism
en : maybe there should be an informal rule about translations ? Like, only translate what falls off the recent changes ?
lk: Or maybe: Translate what hasn't been touched in 2 days? 2-days off today on RC? (Kinda hard to find out what's off RecentChanges, because it's off RecentChanges.)
xtof : let's say I feel sometimes excited to discover your underlying ideas :-)
lk: :)
lk: re the paragraph, I'm worried that it feels to "airy-fairy" "woo-foo" without much substance behind it. Perhaps we should make some more specific statements about it?
lk: I'll look at some of my rave advertising postercards; They always have a bunch of booster promo-language on it; That may be a good inspiration.
lk: Ah, I see-- it's sort of like a resume! So, we could have a promo section that says the kinds of things we're going to be talking about, in a way that appeals to gut and spirit; Then we can list the technologies we'll be using, and have the URL of the wiki pages that describe the technologies. We should probably use a link shortener, so that it will be easy to copy and paste, and we can get a lot of info density. So, I can imagine something looking like this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WikiWoodstock 1 presented by CommunityWiki,
CraoWiki, S23, ...
!Inter-Wiki Cooperation!
(Mattis writes something really Organizing the HiveMind,
sweeping and grand here.) Calling the Tribes,
- - - - - - -
Describe possibile tracks of (Exciting motivating text
conversation) here, about change and the
Internet and social organizing)
* IRC (irc.freenode.net) http://wikiwoodstock.org/
* MoonEdit http://wikiwoodstock.org/
* live Tech-Support http://wikiwoodstock.org/
* live human German & French translation
* de-spamming party bash!
------------------------------------------------------------------
*em plays the saxophone to add a soundtrack*
Bweeeeeeeep dadatzaa
*drum roll*
em: Hmm, I wonder if "tribes" and "hive mind" will appeal to that many people. Isn't it a bit "vocabulary tied to a community" ? ^^ (well, tribes maybe not)
lk:
ma: What I also thought about were kinda despaming-raids. Get a bunch of folks together and despam. Lists of possible tagets and instructors or people leading a willing depaming-hoard would be good.
enm: (note : have a WikiWoodstock on the next Talk Like a Pirate Day)
lk: De-spamming party! {;D}=
lk: You can leave a card on each wiki you de-spam. "Your wiki de-spammed today by... ...the WikiWoodstock TAZ." {;D}=
ma: leave a card, ;)
em: Hmm, something like "you have been wikiwoodstocked" (instead of slashdotted)
ma: lol
lk: {;D}=
lk: Or,... Perhaps since the theme is inter-*community* (need to keep reminding myself!) cooperation, perhaps we should go with a more church-theme, than rave-theme. Or some hybrid. (yeeech!) That is: make it more like a picnic themed thing,..
lk: Let me go look up some promo material, to see how they arrange it...
ma: I'll leave a note on religion-wiki, but else we shouln't care too much about religion. We're respectful. That should do.
lk: http://www.visualpractitioner.org/directory/
lk: Nah, nah, nah- I don't mean religion- I just mean: The style of their promo stuff. You know, you go to the grocery store, and you see some church that's advertising for people to come visit. I'm saying, the language they use is very different than the language you find on rave lit. Not too many churches saying: "His DMC-style turntablism combined with the funkiest of house and boundless energy are rapidly making him one of the west coast's most popular performers,...." You just don't see language like that in church lit. You see pictures of baskets and talks about harmony and you see silloettes of people holding hands and stuff.
lk: If the theme is WikiWoodstock and InterCommunityCooperation, we want something that will pull that crowd, and find the people who have that vision, and inspire them so strongly, that they want to come. So, we have to use the right language to pull them in; Pass them the code-words and stuff.
lk: Or, perhaps we're just recruiting our friends, which is also a perfectly good strategy, at this point. Just having 15-30 people would be an amazing feat here.
ma: recruiting, military term. Inviting our friends to party with us. This approach + 300 bar steam pressure.
lk: U h, shoot. Everyone's gone. I scared them away or something.
lk: {:)}=
lk: 300 bar? (?)
ma: bar is athmosheric pressure. No, we did not scare them away. This page is rich, rich, rich, thank you very much,lion, dear friend.
lk: oh! okay :)
lk: flammifer disappeared from IRC too, I think his computer must have just failed him, or his modem.
lk: Shall we call it a day? We don't have our paragraph, but we can work it out on CW, and ratify it next week, or something.
ma: A day.
lk: Okay!
ma: cu.
lk: Are you going to put this on the TingWiki?
em : I'm back to life :)
ma: ha. tings never end!
lk: Oh, good! {;D}=
lk: Emile, do you have something to add before we go? We didn't get a paragraph out of this. {:(}= But we can let it bake on CW for a while.
ma: fry
em: Nothing special to add, no. working it out on cw seems fine. tho I haven't seen a lot of "church fliers", I get the idea ^^
em: (conidering it's half past 3 in the morning here, I'm ready to call it a night - *rubs eyes*)
lk: Okay!
lk: Meeting ajourned! {:)}=
em: (goodbye / goodnight folks !)
lk: g'night {:D}=
ma: n8 :)
