Talk:TingWiki/ting7
From S23Wiki
ting7 on thursday 3rd of march 21:00 GMT
[edit] text inclusion from ting7_talk
ting7_talk
thursday 3rd of march, 21.00 GMT
=== participants ===
* ma: Mattis Manzel
*
(mattis -) (From markos place, expecting the others) Hi, see you in a while.
(marko) welcome home
ma: thanks.
mr: allready dry?
ma: not really, 30 cm sono. (snow)
(It's a lot of snow in Venice.) (snow)
ma: + snow, all over kinda. Grudznuk Irkutzk!
mr: got a telefone call from my mothermjmr.
ma: now everybody on the net (not yet but when we export the page to the wiki) knows. Just for all to remember. it will go to:
http://is-root.de/wiki/index.php/TingWiki/ting7
ma: announced it on all irc channels I know. Hope we won't be alone.
mr: eva and i just made a snowman. want a photo?
ma: you can make a page on s23 and upload it there, I show you how. (public, is it a nude snowman? *blush*)
What is that desire for making snow-mans anyway? Somehow we deep down in our soul have a desire for a paralel population of "Aliens". Or is it a flashmob? And if, who organizes it and can I get the url for the wiki they have? And if they do not have one, could I make them one (15 secs).
ma: hi marica
marica: hi! (I'll just rant out my self-introduction here.) I've recently discovered Moonedit and am eager to experience what it can do.
ma: seems like today everybody starts with ma.
oi, in falls the crowd, welcome.
Any news Fabi?
Fabi: Moin! Nope
What's the topic for today?
How is this page integrated into the ting wiki?
Are there any wikis that allow moonediting also?
ma: I have been slutty, make up one. (even two.)
see it some other drop in.
...
not as far as I know. T the admin has to create a .php file before the ting. Then we enter comand svsave.txt in moonedit and it gets copied to that php file, Then we copy it to the wiki. Bit of more automatization coming soon I hope. Colors get lost but lineshifts stay.
More moonedit servers would be cool btw.
Hmm, have to have a look into the implementation. How the "colors" are saved. *ARG* Using non free software is a waste of time...
ma: Yes! Best write at the end of the page, keeps some chronology like that. .oO(IRC does this automtically)
marica: ok :):):):)
ma: and we do it as humans, when we want it. :)
You can c,c&p - shift and arrowkeys in moon-edit.:)
Fabi you knaw any Japanese wikis? More social then programming. Eva speaks Japanese.
No
marica: I speak Japanese too :)
ma: cool, we need a Japanes moon-edit, I told ya! Where are you marica, Im in Italy.
UTF-8/Unicode is the way to go
marica: in Japan.
ma: cool, I love this ball, it's my favorite. Where did you hear about moon-edit?
marica: mmm, I think from Lion's weblog. I was looking for some kind of more sophisticated forum or online communication tools.
ma: Lion rocks! We skype sometimes, skype-ip: mattismanzel Know communitywiki?
marica: ic>skype yep I sometimes browse >communitywiki
skype is getting some publicity in Japan too probably I guess.
ma: we make global jam-sessions on it too, music.
Skype is just another lame donkey as moon-edit is for making a worl-online-revolution, both are proprietary cripples, we need (in words: need) something free a n d open. Good as both lovely pieces of software are, and better.
someone knows the skype-folks?
Imagine a skype conference-call, 5 musicians are doing a jam-session. Would there be a way to put the signal out to an intenet-stream, for everybody worldwide to listen to it?
I'd like to get a 24/7-world-jam session going, know?
marica: I wonder if there will be countries or office buildings in the jam session world.
Fabi gets the feeling moonedit connects the disadvantages of IRC and Wiki
ma: Das Seitenwagenmotorrad - die Nachteile des Autos mit den Nachteilen des Motorads auf geniale Weise kombiniert.
Countries and office buildings, I wonder.
Fabi: I think about a wiki engine that also saves the users that created the text. Wouldn't be that easy to build a non moonedit edit system. But you could export text to the user and try to calculate a diff and merge it into the text... still fishy.
marica: I think about hyper-text editing onthefly. Making a new link to a new page when we find some topic worth a page and launch off to that new page. Structuring the document.
Fabi: Yep, a true moonwiki. This all in one file thing doesn't work well. On the other hand I am not shure if you wouldn't get lost. If there is only one file talking to each other it is easier. But it would be an interesting experiment. .oO(reimplement moon edit in Python and release under GPL)
marica: true we might get lost. But we sometimes get lost in an ordinary linear chat..wandering off in the conversation space. Perhaps a 3d text edit space..
Fabi: 3D interfaces do not work/give no benefit because humans only see 2D.
ma: cool, full of ideas already the ting. What we have to learn is to rework it into five sentences. Later, afterwards, next day.
marica: actually moonedit is 3D (2D + time) hehe.
Fabi: I would say 2.1 D as you can't really see the whole time.
Hmm, moon edit isn't very useful in treadmode. Did you ever used in in document mode?
Document mode. We have(d) ting5_document open in a second window for copying over good contents. It partialy worked, a Topics list was done (ting 3 or 4 I think)
Fabi: Did this work well? Compared to a Wiki?
ma: You can not really compare wiki to moon-edit, baby and goliath. Moon edit is about 10 to 1000 times more powerful - I sense. It is the connection between text and groove.
Fabi: I am not yet convinced. Higher noise level isn't more power, IMHO. The advantage of wiki is the lower speed which leads to higher quality (that's the theory). Conversiation is not what you want as results.
ma: sorry, shure I mean moon-edit on top, combined interwoven with wiki. moonedit itself is good good for chaos pure
Fabi: But moonedit in document mode sounds interesting. But this would need some discipline. And a structure that is define before the session or made a t the beginning. So one shouldn't start a moonedit session without an agenda, I guess. Or combine Moonedit and IRC... Hmm, load an Wikipedia article into a moonedit session... and write it back to the WP after the session...
ma: Dis'pli'. T'ats w'at we 'bout to develop, man.
Y o u g o t i t !
Fabi: So we are doing it completly wrong right now...
ma: interesting question, explain to an easy man.
Fabi: We are using moon edit as chat, right now. This wastes the abilities of moonedit. (Is IRC better suited for chatting?)
ma: no. we are cpmmunication on the level of our common skills, c'mon we just met each other.:)
Fabi: This is "chatting".
ma wait I make ting7_document
Fabi: Opening an file alone doesn't help. You need a topic/agenda.
ma: open a second program window, login c.h23.org and open the page ting7_document.
place document above, 1/3 of the screen, talk, below, 2/3 rds, that's how I do it.
F: got it
marica: done. hmm do we want to leave the "chat" log as it is. We could squish it into a condensed document.
F: makes sense IMHO. That's the way it works in wikis. The question is if really two seperate documents are needed, but it is easier this way of course.
marica: yeh I second it's easier.
F: So what do we want to move?
ma: we got that it works, let's rather visionize: Three levels, the talk, the document (condensed during the ting) and both exported to wiki shortly after (a night for now is my good experience), make an condenstion of ideas, groove, and react using the adequate tools in the right phase of empathy. Reconstructing how the human brain works on the meta level, in impulses, trtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrt
marica: I recall having a similar experince, like having to summarize a log into a document. I was organizing a weekly meeting in a online virtual world. The method I resolved on was scribbling out the keywords during the conversation and later adding this and that and afterthoughts.
F: So the way is not to rework the whole log into a new text, but to create a summary about the same topics? Sounds resonable to me, because an chat log is not easily converted into an text. Even much less easier than an wiki/forum/mailing list conversation. If I read what we've written until now, I had no idea where/how to start converting it into an text.
marica: yes. Reviewing the whole thing (as I first tried) is time consuming.
F: so moon-edit conversions are chats and are different from Wiki/mailing list conversations?
marica: in moon-edit we can go back and add a header or something. chats can't do that.
F: Yes, but it disrupts the conversation flow and is hard to understand afterwards. So editing the past is not very helpfull, except for corecting errors or may be improve expresions.
ma: + _document
"edit the past" is the base of civilisation. (didn't know about a quote, just made it up)
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell
I also have the feeling that moon edit discurages the users to write in parallel, in chat this is much more natural. Moon-edit is more like a real conversiation. Everyone waits until the other(s) have finished their sentenses. This is much more inefficient than IRC, because reading is much faster than writing. But I think you can get around this if you want to.
marica: yes. I want to mark where I've already read. or maybe not.
F: Being inefficient in conversation is a big disadvantage, IMHO. I already think IRC does not allow to get enough information over the wire. It simply takes much to long to really get the point.
ma: we are in 3 and calm and thoughtful. I have seen machine-gun fireworks of people, cursor races, ascii paintings woven by 7. all on me-server sphere.pl
F: IRC does not scale very good for lots of active users, but quite good. So you say moon-edit scales worse?
ma: I never ever really understood what "to scale" means.
It means "works still well if you change the numbers (to very large)"
you need different machines for different speeds of groove, for now it's moon-edit, as we are three and give a shit abut the world outsides, in our moonedit cage, and then - zack - it's out for everbody, but just a single one at a time. groove
F: maschine or file? is this really a performance problem of the server? I would guess that it is a problem of the people following.
marica: When you need to track who said what, thread of thoughts, I think number matters in any communication.
F: I wounder if you can organize a moon-edit session like a cocktail party. There are several conversations about different topics and you can move around and attend the conversation you like. so if there are too many people in this discussion some of us could start a new one. But I guess forking a new conversiation is much more difficult in a linear text file than in a room.
it is the mandelbrot in conversation.
*??*
these graphics, from every spot if the thing can emerge an entire new thing
F: In IRC you sometimes have a cocktail party. If the traffic is too high you only read the posts of the people you talk to. But in Moon-edit it would ne nice if you could really move to another corner of the room. This would be a real advantage over IRC.
ma: its like on wiki, you can open up a new page on whatever and get people move over to it. Just more "wiki".
F: but on a wiki the creation of a new page is a visible action. perhaps you would need a convention like "[MOONEDIT DISCUSSION: SEE BELOW]" to move the people you talk to to the new place.
ma: It's just as visible here, refresh the file list.
F: Wikis are used via the RC, moon edit sessions have a very local horizon. So you need to leave a "link". And it is very difficult to take the old discussion with you if it is mixed up with some others.
Perhaps the file should be devided into part that have topics... So we have a more document mode like approach.
ma: that will all grow fast as lightning wehen people participate, I'm moon-edit spaming as mad since weeks.
F: Text overload is a real problem. Too many text not enough information.
ma: technorati:moonedit is nice. Hope brother, hope.
s---------my corner-----------a
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| /__\ O O O
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| art your heart
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p------------------------------m
ma: our house, in the middle of the street.
F: What about a Wiki that can offer pages as moonedit session. The page would be locked for wiki editing during this time. After the session is closed all the colors would be removed and the pages get a normal wiki page again. This should be quite easy to implement.
ma. speedy idea! Misses the gearbox still but has already 700 horse powers.
F: This would be a much better environment to test the power of moon edit.
ma: Don't forget that. You have to get in touch with mutante. He pushs the buttons (and others I never met - 'til now, qoreqyas met him too, ThomasWaldmann, jimbo, Angela, all on 21c3). I can just bridge people, when I do not understand anymore and the kids get going my job is done.
F: I have to go to bed soon. Already half past midnight here.
ma: me too, gn8, cu. Sunday at 18:00 GMT
marica: it was nice moon-editing :)
ma: what's the local time?
F: local time where?
ma: Thought you went to bed?
not yet, but on the way. n8
ma: Japan.
marica: mine is GMT+09:00. now 8:40 am. whole day ahead. n8 F
ma: cool. 00:41 CET here, that's GMT +1
marica: wo. CET sounds cool.
Central european time, stay tuned and pass a wikiadress.
http://oddwiki.taoriver.net/wiki.pl/MattisManzel/HomePage
Tom: Hello, hey mattis, looks like I missed 2 nice tings :)
marica: hi. ic still hanging around..
Tom: I'm reading this conversation a little..
are you studying or something? (general question)
me too, computer science.. cool, I like biology, although don't like all
this names. you know.. every plant, bone, organism etc.. have his own name..
I always felt it is not so necessery to learn biology too much..
just experiment with plants / animals / genes ..
knowledge should be just well organised and available..
sure.. but maybe only when you need that knowledge (especially very detailed stuff)
marica: yes, I'm a university student. biology but not really a specialist. ah.
most of biology is bunch of knowledge mmm.. well. the best way to organize is still to do it in your head.
yes. for researchers.
tom: that's ok.. I'm a programmer.. so I type faster using keyboard than pen.
oh.. I now understood one thing (not related)..
I was chatting once with a girl I met, and I relize it was pretty annoying
to her.. that she can't communicate that easily (she was typing slower)..
marica: as a student maybe I'm not much interested in learning the details.
actually in particular I'm going to major in mathematical biology.
So I'm rather interested in modeling or simulation kind of stuff.
(It might be like talking in a foreign language)
tom: cool, do you mean using computer to simulate biological stuff ? yes
that's nice, I once even bought a book about "organism development".. I mean
some knowledge about how organisms grow from one cell to fully functional animals/plants.. of course that is only one of the topic that could be simulated..
I suppose there is much more.. but still having software that is able
to grow some interesting animals (plants are already easy to generate) for you
would be interesting for me... oh..
but you are not thinking about tierra/framsticks etc.. ?
I was thinking about algorithms to grow more realistic bodies.. but sure..
marica: i gotit. I can't remember the exact name but I've heard of something like that..
a, it might be that. I'm most confident it was tierra. what do you mean by realistic.?
tom: I mean.. not just simulate evolution of genes.. but simulating growing animal
body from gene-like code, from millions of cells (let's say a newborn)
marica: ic. I wonder if you'd have to start from growing a complete single cell organism.
or maybe I'm getting too much in the detail.
tom: for instance plants can be "simulated" using l-systems / fractals.. not much biology in it (although it was invented by some biologist: Lindenmeyer).. and we can see all those almost-realistic plants in computer graphics / games / animations...
but I never saw an animal developed like this.. (ok, maybe there are some, not much detailed, or I just don't know)
marica: (some words flying around in my head now.. system abstraction detail hox genes "theoretically possible" "actually done this way")
(summarizing my thought molecular biologists work from the bottom, modeling starts from the middle.)
(Tom draws cells.)
tom: oh .. BTW do you know what kind of rules can be applied to my cell subdivision sheme?
marica: mm I don't know much about the details. Perhaps you could start from something with no inner structure.
cells have to charactarize/differenciate
tom: yup.. just decide which cell will die/survive..
I already did some simulation of die/survive.. but it was for something else..
I just realized it's similiar to cells/organism today/now...
marica: wow.
tom: http://ged.ax.pl/~tomkh/anti_en.htm <- some cellular patterns in those games
there are no rules .. just random cells but still somehow "dividing",
that's why there is cave-like look
marica: find all notes. it looks like ising model. just the shape.
tom: yeah.. it's about the shape only..
I create big cells at first, empty/solid at random, than "divide" into many many
small ones that inherit empty/solid property from bigger ones..
marica: A biologist might ask what's the corresponding biological feature of empty/solid.
tom: I thought it is die/survive.. oh
the idea is: to not make it at random, but using some simple rules.. hmm..
marica: so there's a chain of cells sharing some characteristic or environment.
tom: BTW next game is about virus/cell-bloods, I know it's far from realism / biology..
it is just for fun .... :)
marica: ic :) A classmate once said there are mathematical biologists and biological mathematicians.
tom: do you live in some nice place ? oh so I guessed correctly. :)
i'll select you now...what's that? the mountains behind the sea!
marica: hmm I can see the . hm. oh :) what's the reasoning behind that? interested. fabrication. but the me knows everything.
tom: me=MoonE.. ? yes.
do you like this app? (of course it's not a secret who is the author)
marica: yes (I didn't realize till the cell game lol)
tom: I'm working on new version slowly.
marica: ic. somewhere above "Someone keeps stealing my letter" and somewhere near secondlife or There or gumonji, I thought.
tom: hmm you are talking about other applets/software, right?
I know only "... stealing my letter"
marica: yes. latters are 3d virtual worlds that lets you edit the landscape (not only but). Text is much better for expressing.
tom: oh I remember "second life" promotional banners.. I was thinking about doing
this ME more massive.. I mean.. more servers/users etc.. of course it depends
on users which app they will choose..
marica: I thought what if webbrowsers adopt this kind of app.
tom: exactly.. I was thinking about this as web-browser like app.. still adding formatting/images etc. is not that easy and maybe not necessary..
I met some interesting people here.. that were just using my app...
marica: that's cool
Attention: Nuts are good for your health (not too much though).
tom: yeah It would be nice to have million of users (hehe).. for now.. "just" few thousands downloads..
marica: It's kind of deja vu. gumonji I mentioned above started out as aiming (it's Japanese) at recreation of the web.
The developers wanted/wants its "browser"(client app) to be really used like a web browser.
Though it can only view the 3d world now. The world has physics simulation and ecology simulation.
(With molecules like CO2 H2O etc not many.)
tom: hmm .. interesting.. too bad I don't know Japaneese...
have you talk to gumonji creators ?
marica: yes they're trying to make it really bottom-up, communicating with the users.
(even defining users as developers of the world)
tom: oh.. any chance they are nuts?
marica: maybe..lol
tom: looks interesting..
marica: :) so when I first talked with them there were only several hundred downloads. deja vu.
tom: I should now treat users like developers probably.
Any chance you are interested in music? (playing/creating)
marica: I play the piano. I don't do creating side..
tom: Sure. Playing from notes.
I was playing accordion for 4 years (mostly from notes) and piano too
(in music school)
marica: cool. cool.
tom: yeah of course you know there is some music in ME..
marica: yep only played a few notes.
tom: sure.. basic instrument is crap..
marica: well it sounds like good old NES or something. hehe.
tom: just read you actually live in Japan, hehe.. so you are japaneese
marica: yep.
tom: I mean.. I never knew any japaneese..
marica: honored to be the first one
tom: Am I the first polish you "met" ?
marica: is gdansk polish? mm not instant but some kind of web messaging or two.
but realtime first.(:
tom: with some people in gdańsk? hmm maybe you know guys from GABRI or ATR ?
(you mentioned gdańsk)
Because I live in Gdansk and have few friends that were in Japan (not only once).
marica: not sure. probably not. oh ic. It was via stumbleupon. (There's an atr in japan too. interesting)
tom: They are doing some research in AI field...
ok nevermind then..
k
all right, It was pleasure to meet.. it's 2:55 AM here..
marica: me too. o. 10:55 AM now. oh it's friday.
tom: it would be nice to chat again sometime..
I guess I'll be around...
marica: yeah.
tom: yup so have a nice day ... gn8
marica: gn8
tom: I really imagined some nice place (tree / grass etc..) and asked it that way..
marica: ic. there actually is a garden next. but there are houses between here & the mountains.
tom: hmm is it possible that I imagined your place in my mind.. probably not :)
of course there could be some correspondence between living in nice place and biological interest.. hmm..
marica: I actually moved around a bit. I actually lived in a nice place in my childhood..
tom: I live not so far from the sea.. I just don't see that sea from my house.
marica: nice. sea shells she sells by the sea shore.
she sells sea shellsby the sea shore.
tom: yeah that's true.. ok I think I must go sleep soon.
..
Oh.. so you live on your own?
marica: yes.
tom: I have 24 and live with parents still (argh).
marica: hmm my father didn't leave house till he married. (at about 30?)
tom: oh..
marica: oh..
tom: I think it must be some rules of replicating properties (genes)..
and apotheosis should be applied to some cells...
that's how we will get a surface (some cells will just die)
the inner structure is not much interesting for me.. although possible to create
maybe..
hehe I realized that I might invented an idea of algorithm for this...
too bad no sketchboard...
cell divided into many.. now we have to apply some rules, how cells
will inherit properties (genes!) from their mother cells....
making more and more divisions it will create a fractal surface...
(any dimenesional)
. | . . o . .
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_/\ / \ . . o . .
/ . | . \ . o . o .
| o. . .o
10min. old 24yrs old
wow, nice :)
marica: 21 :)
