Talk:TingWiki/ting41
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[edit] ting41, sunday, 10th of July 2005, 18:00 UTC (20:00 CEST)
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ting41_talk
Participants:
* xtof: Christophe Ducamp
* ma: Mattis Manzel
* lk: Lion Kimbro
* h: hundfred
xtof : bonjour mattis
ma: ciao xtof. Gimme 5 minutes then I'm here, k?
xtof : take your time !
ma: lion and hundfred are coming.
I talked to phil about gobby, he'll try to get the standalone server running this week.
I've to a creative commons workshop here in Venice yesterday. It was pretty cool. Some guys who are in with the fondazione pistoletti, an famous italian art curator, who seems to be cool. They have someting in mind like wiki-Woodstock. They have an old php wiki, not in use, but got how hot it is also for their work. Tey will install a mediawiki. soon. When I showed them mood-edit they couldn't believe it! there is some pop-potential behind the organisation I guess, dunno. Patti Smith is in with it too. sha has some Venice ties. I just hope. Need a little kick sometimes, know?
hundfred: what do we have to write in the dokument-window?
ma: We used it to summarize during tings already. I like this clicky-clacky sound - has been a bit silent receintly.
lk: We also use it to keep "document-ish" things, like meeting agenda, things we're going to be referencing over and over. http://communitywiki.org/DocumentsVsMessages
lk: In Gobby, it automatically gives you separate document and chat windows.
xtof : bonjour hundfred
h: nice, i will watch more than write for the first time
lk: AOK!
lk: We should call our meeting to order and collect items for discussion. Mattis' story sounded interesting.
ma: lion is a paper waster ;) np, joking.
lk: {;D}= What issues are we talking about today? I have a party to attend later; I want to make sure we go through this efficiently. (brainstorming mode)
ma:
lk: Oh yah! I've wanted to hear about that!
lk: I've been listing things in the document window
lk: So far, I've listed:
* Mattis's Art curator
* SocialBookmarkingToWiki
* Monthly meet, seasonal meet?
* Extension for mediawiki
* Gobby, MoonEdit, compiling on Debian, ...
lk: oh! I'm just curious about who hundfred is. {:)}=
ma: uses bsd, right, they sys-admin of the italian folks yesterday just swapped their system on it. hund, you could help and verse visa I guess.
xtof : bonjour lion currently trying irc... is anybody joining wikimania next august ?
lk: xtof- do you have anything to talk about? You've been kind of quiet, but I know you usually have a lot of ideas.
lk: If not, it sounds like we have:
* Mattis's Art curator
* SocialBookmarkingToWiki (http://communitywiki.org/SocialBookmarkingToWiki) -> social bookmarking, anone heard of ajax? social bookmark-manager: http://de.lirio.us
* Monthly meet, seasonal meet?
* Extension for mediawiki
* Gobby, MoonEdit, compiling on Debian, ...
* Who is hundfred?
ma: Both comitted suicide. ;) Idea overflow.
lk: ok, okay;
lk: So, this sounds like our agenda. Oh, wait-
* The semiotics of sequential posting. {;)}=
lk: Yes, we have heard of AJAX- it's very exciting. Are you interested in it? Do you work on it? Do you know about API's and tools for it?
hu: just heard about
lk: He asked about AJAX, and I responded, but I do't know if he's seeing our talking down here,...
ma: maybe he's rolling, your party is in 6 or 9 minutes Lion? ;)
lk: No. Party is in 3 hours. But, I still think we should be having efficient meetings. I am personally not interested in long casual regular sessions. If they are going to be weekly meetings, I'd like them to be finite and focused on things of more importance to us than not.
ma: Agree, effetive. No overpushing. Depends on the musicians, sure, Miles first or second take was it, but the ones he play with could cope with that. Off-topic, sry.
lk: But, see, immediately, I'm concerned that he can't see our text, because he just doesn't know about MoonEdit talk pages, because he's new.
lk: Okay! I think we have an agenda. Is there anything else?
lk: Okay. Haven't heard anything. Should we start with the art curator and this other wiki woodstock?
ma: I met them yesterday the first time, vibes were really good, contacts are made, Marco will be back home on Monday and send me the stuff relevant from their mailing list, I got the sysadmin empassionated for a mediawiki, my sql and php is on the server already. we'll see soon. No more to say righ now.
lk: What is their vision like, for a wiki-woodstock? Or an "Internet Woodstock"?
ma: It is some streaming projects Marco talked about, he liked the wiki-woodstock name, we did not go in details, really. Involving people seemed the idea, all kind of interactive on-line stuff. We remet in the evenig in my favorite bar by accident, they went to eat there then.
lk: What was their wiki about?
ma: hipatia-wiki, I do not understand who is who and who is with what group yet. hipatia-wiki is spanish. Setting free social processes using art in Mediaterean area.
lk: (looking up hipatia) (these guys? http://www.hipatia.info/) (http://wiki.hipatia.info/)
lk: (this raises an item for me- node-wiki)
lk: Are those links- are those the people you are talking about?
ma: firefox problem, no bookmarks I'm on win (for the clicks)
lk: I think those are them. " Software without borders. Knowledge without frontiers, that is Hipatia. We strive to have free knowledge, in action for towns and villages of the world." They seem to be interested in Free Software and Free Culture.
lk: I perceive the FragmentedDemocracyProblem again, and am interested in InterCommunityCooperation.
ma: yes, these links at least somehow have to do with it.
lk: But, you know: Groups have to form first, before groups can ally with other groups. And before they can ally, they have to become aware of one another.
lk: There is an interesting problem in that there are hundreds of these groups, and I doubt that just making a list of 100 others on each one is going to help. Perhaps it needs to work out regionally, or something. Or maybe not. Perhaps we need BlogControlledByWiki, and a Planet collecting all of their collective blogs together, or something.
ma: pueh. What's on your mind? Else?
lk: Are we done talking about Hipatia?
ma: jepp. Is proposing them a mediawiki allright. They first thought I should do one on oddwiki, but I guess for popularity reasons mediawiki is better.
lk: Hm;... I didn't see much posting on their PHP wiki. My personal intuitition is that if they aren't getting any posts on this one, a MediaWiki isn't going to make things much better.
ma: No. It was a bit in use ages ago. They work on mailing lists, yakk, but they definitely got it yesterday.
lk: When you say "got it," what are you talking about?
ma: got that you have to use a wiki for something that is supposed to get a mass sucess. Marco at least did. the others too. Unlayed eggs you say in German, Let's pick something else now.
lk: Well- wait- this is interesting- is this an uncomfortable subject, or- would anyone object to continuing in this line-..?
ma. nono, just go.
lk: I'm thinking: E-mail IS a lot more convenient for holding casual conversation. It strikes me that we should have an e-mail server, that interacts with wiki. The subject line of the e-mail to a particular address is the name of the wiki page you want to append to. Whenever someone reworks a page, the entire page is resent to everybody on "the list."
ma: k, I'm a bit viagra spam burnt on e-mail and the wikipedia mail-tsunami stays pretty unread too. But the export mail to wiki thingy sound interesting. Many people would join that way I guess. I'm a bit afraid of spam thaough, but you will finde tech solutions I suppose.
lk:
lk: The same spam protections that exist now for wiki would continue to exist. (nod)
lk: If someone posted spam to the wiki by email, it would be the same as if they tried to post spam to the wiki by editing the page. You'd get an e-mail back that reads: "Rejected."
ma: hmm, cool. I'll have to get a new mobile phone to be able to write on cw from everywhere. When Alex announced the fotos from tenerifa by mobile I thought that's cool.
lk: The only thing I worry about is a flood of email. Perhaps it should not send a page until it's been an hour since last edit made, or something. Hour reset if another edit made.
ma: desactivating it agein will be easy;)
lk: This kind of thing would make it easier for mailing list cultures to adapt.
ma: right. Very good point. First make people feel the effect of being read, learning the wikisyntx in 5 mintes as a second step, very cool.
lk: I imagine initially, they would get syntax wrong in email, but after people see their posts online and start reworking it, they would say, "Oh, it's easier if we just put it in the e-mail right." We can also send HTML mail back, that shows the correctly formatted page, and what not. You send just text, you get back formatted.
ma: even automatically.
lk: Oh! Well- Most mail editors allow HTML in the mail. You could say that italics and bold and links were accepted in mail to the wiki, and were correctly applied as if you had performed syntax.
ma: what about node-wikis. I still do not know if I should be ashamed or proud of them. Fixed around on node-wiki-for-city-wikis half of the day today.
lk: Let's bump that up.
lk: The idea that we need a center-point for a group of related is a good one. Making an entire wiki for an individual list, seems, to me, a not-so-good idea.
lk: Do you know about the Bardo?
ma: no.
lk: The Bardo was a wiki that I had on TaoRiver, but I reaped for lack of use. The purpose of the Bardo was as a "Limbo" point for wiki- wiki that people ''wished'' existed, but didn't actually exist yet. It was composed ''entirely'' of WikiNodes for nonexistant wiki. The idea was that when the wiki actually existed, it would pull it's WikiNode back out of the Bardo.
lk: Perhaps I should ressurect it. Then, when you need a "node-wiki for wiki-node", you would pull a page from the bardo. That way, there's only one wiki, rather than hoards and hoards and hoards of wiki (each with one page.) It also makes the protection of the wiki infinitely easier.
lk: Am I just talking gibberish, or...? Should I write in another way?
ma: should I read in another way is rather the question, maybe faster ;)
"lk: Das Bardo war ein wiki, das ich auf TaoRiver hatte, aber ich für Mangel an Gebrauch erntete. Der Zweck des Bardo war als "Überhangs" Punkt für wiki- wiki, das ' ' wünschte bevölkeren, daß '' bestand, aber nicht wirklich bestand noch. Es war bestandenes ' ' völlig '' von WikiNodes für nonexistant wiki. Die Idee war, daß, als das wiki wirklich bestand, sie es ist WikiNode ausweicht vom Bardo ziehen würde. lk: Möglicherweise ich, ressurect es wenn. Dann wenn Sie einen "Nullpunkt-wiki für Wikinullpunkt" benötigen, würden Sie eine Seite vom bardo ziehen. Daß Weise, dort nur ein wiki ist, anstatt, hortet und hortet und hortet vom wiki (jedes mit einer Seite.) Sie bildet auch den Schutz vom wiki unendlich einfacher."
lk: {;D}=
hu: dont understand that much of this discussion here ;P
all this different wiki types ... confuses me, but interesting to watch you typing ;) *g*
ma: It's best when there are more in a ting, more writing. Lion has to go free, He need a bit of papre here and now, that's ok.
lk: hundfred, do you know what a WikiNode is?
ma: He knows our on s23-wiki, I guess.
lk: There's been some explosive Wikinode action on the 43 folders wiki. People I've never heard of noding. It's been pretty cool.
ma: It seems to me that also some folks on wikipedia like or at least tolerate this idea (even though it is not from Jimbo).
lk: (laugh)
lk: When we have MetaDataInWiki such as MachineCodeBlocks, we'll have automatic graphing and rendering of the WikiNodesNetwork. FlorianFesti is writing the code these days, for it.
lk: Jimbo's too busy running and promoting an encyclopedia to be concerned much about the world beyond it's borders, is my take on it. We're like the suburbs, wikipedia is like the urban downtown center w/ skyscrapers.
ma, WE#RE LIKE THE SUBURBS: i LIKE THAT: tHE TOUGHEST SOUND; THE BEST BANDS ALWAYS CAME FROM THE SUBURBS.
lk: We're suburban sprawl. {;D}= I made a picture once of wikidom.
lk: Uh, well. {;D}= It has it's ups and downs. {;D}=
ma: Gott, wie ich diese Atempauden liebe! Und trotzdem wär's alles nur ein zehntel so wiki ohne lion!
lk: Ok- so, what do you think about having one or two wiki for storing "node-wiki" pages? I'm really concerned about these node-wiki; They are totally ripe for vandalism, attack. A wiki with no community that lives in it- that just seems like begging for trouble.
ma: It's a drag that folks do not write on them. Could be so useful for news and idea exchang. I want a node-wiki-for-health-wiki. Medicine homeoaptie, healers,
lk: Well, wait- wouldn't that just be a "health wiki"?
lk: We are rapidly approaching the point where there is a wiki for every interest group. Within 10 years, every group will likely have a wiki, (or something like it,) just as every group has a need for document storage.
ma: wikis having home pages on is the base. reporting about their wiki on their home page.
lk: I'm of the mind that they would use blogs for reporting. (yes?)
lk: Reporting is an intrinsicly message-based thing. It's not about documents and improving documents, though there should probably be an attached space for connecting, a little "wiki pagelet" attached.
ma: why not a wiki page. Rc's for different blogs? you can simulate that all with wiki, the wiki-forum page substitutes a forum completely e.a.
lk: (?) There are RecentChanges for blogs- they're the RSS feeds. (?) I think I'm not understanding.
lk: Let me make sure I'm understanding you right, first: I'm understanding that you are meaning to say: "Because you can do blog posting within a wiki, and because you can do forum posting within a wiki, they should both therefor (ideally) be done within wiki." (yes?)
ma: seems what I said in the storm of the conversation, but I think it's right.
lk: Well, let's see. Let me think. I want to respond to this.
lk: I think that these different mediums are actually better at doing their things, than just wiki. For example: Let's take blank pieces of paper, for instance. Blank pieces of paper can be anything, but I wouldn't say people have to all start from a blank piece of paper for everything. Blogs have a particular ''form,'' that's a very useful form. It's also streamlined for it's thing-- posting updates. When you have a blog, you can post very quickly, it's automatically sequential, you have all these things it gives you. Wiki: You have to do that all by hand. You have to maintain a lot of stuff by hand. (hows this for an argument?) (is it convincing? if not, what are the objections or reservations?)
ma: by hand is right, the wiki-forum page should for example create a new date enty automatically. thing is ist's closer together. I believe you get them tied together. for me - not even knoeing hoe to use blog - I can only simulate the differnt functions on wiki. Thin ice, I don't know what I'm talking about, but even that is ok, as long as it inspires you ;).
lk: Maybe you should keep a blog! {:)}= Learn about how they work and stuff. Do you have an RSS aggregator, a news feed aggregator?
ma: maybe, though about it, but I have wiki, what do I need a bicycle for when I have a hovercraft that can simulate bicycle?
lk: If you're trying to go through a tight alley, the bicycle is just the thing. ;)
lk: Some other things about blogs and bulletin boards, that wiki does NOT have: The ability to keep posts *permanent* (unchanged.) And blogs are particularly valued, because you own your own words, forever and ever.
ma: K, true maybe.
lk: Ultimately, I don't think the media scene will look at all like it does today. "Wiki" and "blog" will be viewed as this sort of old division. We'll be able to make mediums more fluidly. But I think wiki and blog will still be relevant center-points. "keeping a log" is pretty fundamental, and "keeping documents" is pretty fundamental. In the future, we'll be making blogs and wiki automatically, and managing vision over them arbitrarily. If we want to watch a page on a foreign wiki, or if we want to track a blog, or any of these things- it will be under both group and individual eyes, aggregated together.
lk: There are good reasons for people to need their words recorded in a way that won't be altered. When people link to something, they want to be sure it says what they read! (sometimes, frequently.) If you say, "President Bush said blahblah," but then someone edited it so that he didn't say it- that's a problem. There's good need for accountability and permanent records. IT's not _all_ "let's wipe everything and replace it with something better."
ma: that particular problem would actually be cool! But ok.
lk: I think, though, that all these blog entries- they should have a little miniature wiki page attached. That way, people can contribute links to and fro. They can say, "For other stuff on this topic, go look over there." People can also host corrections in the little attached wikilets. I call them "connection nodes," and I think they should exist attached to everything. Blog posts, blog comments (where they are only displayed if they are actually used,) mailing list posts in archives- pretty much wherever there is a _static_ space, there should be a _dynamic_ space right next to it.
ma: sounds good. Marco would love it I think.
lk: Who's Marco?
ma: One of the guys yesterday. We shered a good spirit togehther.
lk; :)
lk: Okay, I have stuff to do- is there anything high priority on the list?
ma: Lion thx, I was apleasure, ting's revitalized for me stand anothe 3 ones al alone on the page. Good party for you and my superior best regards to Amber.
lk: Oh- I wasn't at the one two weeks ago- my mom died that day. I was busy at my parent's home. (So, it has nothing to do with the community, or anything like that- it was purely a personal affair.)
lk: Okay, take care! See you on CW, and next week. {:)}=
ma. un bacchio!
lk: xtof, hundfred- I don't know if you were into this or not. But if you ever have anything to announce, or are hot to talk about, and think we might be remotely interested, please bring it up. We try to remember to periodically say; "Any issues? Anyone got something they want to bring up?" Okay. I'm out. {:)}=
wait- MAttis, are you going to copy to the wiki? Should I do one and you do one? I can do the talk page, you can do the document page...?
ma: done
lk: You did both?
lk: okay, take care {:)}=
