Talk:TingWiki/ting12
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[edit] ting10, thursday 24th of March 2005, 21:00 GMT (22:00 CET)
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[edit] ting12_talk moon-edit page inclusion
ting12_talk Mar 24 2005
Participant
* ma: Mattis Manzel
* F: Fabi
* fl: EmileKroeger (Flammifer)
F:Moin!
What's the topic for this ting?
ma: Hi Fabi. Topic, yes. What is on my mind re recent near changes. I just managed to get THEM WORK ON
http://oddwiki.taoriver.net/wiki.pl/MattisManzel/RecentNearChanges
this will work on moins too, right? And mediawikis too, right?
F: No idea about the details, but Moin and MediaWiki have RSS feeds, too.
ma: I took months and now it seems quite simple. :) Making near recent changes as a common view of the community on neighboring wikis is hot I think, it makes people go out and look at these neighbors, because they want to influence the common view.
F: As I already told you I am not conviced of your approach. I think the RCs get too noisy too fast. For example I would not know what wikis to add to the MoinMoin: wiki. Of course Wiki:, MeatBall: WikiFeatures: and some more would be of interest, but I don't want to read them all. And especially not at once.
ma: you are right as far as it is high traffic wikis concerne, too many edits confuse. For keeping an eye on low traffic ones it is great.
F: yes, but in my case more or less
all interesting wikis have high traffic. SO this features is really useless in some cases.
ma: I wouldn't add anything to wikipedias recent changes, agree. Maybe it is a question of moving things to own wikis. When you are conected propperly, people read your stuff, then a samall, ideal (hunting-group size) team makes sense, and this doesn't do overtraffic.
F: Arguing about WP has no sense. WP is a unique phenomenon. Keep your mind to "normal" wikis like WikiWiki and Meatball which have perhaps 100 edits/day.
Creating even more wiki instances doesn't sound like solving the problem to me...
ma: We agree that it would work on certain cases, constellations. That's a very good beginning.
F: I think low traffic is a value of its own, because is allows people to concentrate one their main issue.
ma: There was the topic-node idea, couldn't such topical nodes see each other's recent changes?
F: What is a topic node? Precise definition, please. (if there is any)
ma: precise definition doesn't exist. Like a wiki-node but for topics going within a community. Think about spam. There would have been, ähm, sorry there are dozens of subgroups within wikis discussing about that.
fl: (Hello)
F: (Hi flammife) Sounds simmilar to my ExtendedRC idea.
ma: (oi flam!) still banned on meatball? I first thought you misbehaved, but you just happen to be in Beijing.
fl: Yeh ... I have a dream, where a man will be judged not by his domain name but by the content of his character ...
ma: by the trust people have in a person. Wiki-tree.
fL: Hmm, I never figured out the use of wiki tree :-P
ma: sigis thing, and mine too. I forgot about it recently. On community-wiki we started to build it and it had like thity people in it already.
http://www.emacswiki.org/cw/WikiFolks
fl: Some kind of web of trust ? I saw it on a few user pages ... but cw:WikiTree doesn't exist :)
ma wikifolks, sorry.
I think it is the basis for decision. Should restart to grow, want me to include you?
fl: Uh, I don't know, *looks*
ma: you can then include others you trust. It's really simple. I can also remove you, if you ...
I really forgot about it, heck!
fl: Ah, ok :) yeah, I wouldn't mind being included :)
fl: Heh, I took the caps lock key off my keyboard. Insert key too ^^ Those things cause typos but serve no use ...
ma: good idea.
Mighty right Mister Remmington. Let's improve things.
fl: By the way, I couldn't edit Cw, am I the only one ?
ma: I had no probs these day. It has downtimes sometimes.
fl: I could until some time last night. then it came up with "could not create lock : file exists". I noticed it hasn't been edited since ... (but then I didn't try just now, I prefer sticking to low bandwith, etc.)
fl: (It's 5:40 A.M. here by the way =) I'm in pyjamas and military overcoat) *yawn* *rubs eyes*
== Thesis about the Recent Changes ==
* RC are the conciousness of a wiki community
* a big part of communication in a wiki works via RC. This does only work if the RCs are read by (more or less) all users.
* a wiki community is kept together by an common interest. The wiki should reflect this interest (topic).
* the community must decide which content fits into their wiki (is on topic)
* not all wiki pages that fit into the topic are on the wiki itself. Topics of wikis have overlap.
* The RC should only contain pages that are ontopic. Everything else is noise. (per definition)
(getting subpages of off-topic (like "spam here only" for example) out of the recent changes was an issue. I exposed off-topic on the old wicafo, which is down now.
(on CW, PageClusters allow to limit the impact of off-topic discussions on RC)
=== Recent Near Changes ===
near recent changes would permanently be determined by the community. They would be a direct reflection of the community's current interest when triggered by a ranking of neighbors on the wiki-node. You could change this view by adding/removing your "signs" from neighbors, others could do so as well. All watch the common result of that.
Why I think NearRC are not the solution:
* merging RCs of two wikis means merging the topics
* if the topics are the same better merge the wikis
* ContentOverCommunity ?
* merging the RCs is merging the communities
* if the topics are different but have an overlap all the nonoverlaping pages are seen as noise
* if one topic is more general than the other the merge might work fine in one direction (at least)
* I see this as a seldom special case
=== Extented Recent Changes ===
* Single pages of neighboring wikis can be added to the RC
* this is done on a per wiki basis
* may be a special page with interwiki names
* wildcards might be used
* there is no LocalRC only the extended
btw: NearRC can be simply modeled as a special case of ExtentedRC.
=== Discussion ===
fl: I'm not convinced about the ranking thing yet. Seems a bit complicated. Wouldn't a "RecentChangeNeighbours" list be enough ? With a community convention on who to include ?
ma: may I export to wiki already to get in others here Any objections or I export in 30 secs?
fl: (no prob')
ma: exported and posted to #wiki, they asked about ting12 there.
fl: does that mean a whole lot of people will come over ? =)
ma: no, someone maybe. I go on #esp too.
fl: what is #esp about ? Esperanto ? =)
ma espians channel on freenode. tav and more.
fl: what is an espian ? o.O
ma: dunno. They cool.
Hey, being able to export and make visible to f*** everybody on the net what goes on in here is ... cool :) It should do so automatically every three minutes during ting-times.
fl: Well, when RealTimeWikis appear ... :)
ma: it's here already, I guess
fl: except it still needs specific software. Maybe it could be done in Java ? There are some online games in Java, so why not ?
ma: moonedit in javascript exists, Tom wrote something, a little harsh still, but works, we lost the url with ting5 or ting6 (server got lost, sorry)
fl: neat :) Did Tom participate in any tings ?
ma: on many. Take a look on ting-wiki.
I whish someone had a backup of the lost ones.
fl: yup :-P ('specially with the history.) *reads soem old ones*
ma: the histories all got lost I think. Ting 10 was when it happened. I had some backup that I uploaded on the new server (the same as s23-wiki which is of good advantage now).
fl: is the ting over ?
F: no idea! But I'll go to bed soon
fl: Hmm, one inconvenient as compared to ircs and wikis is that it's not easy ot know about recent activity (unless you have he sound thingy)
F: I still think IRC is better suited for what we do here. IF ME is used in document mode this might be different, but i haven't seen this yet.
/me -> bed
n8
me too ... n8
