Talk:TingWiki/ting10
From S23Wiki
[edit] ting10, thursday 17th of March 2005, 21:00 GMT (22:00 CET)
ting10_document is on the article page
from server: is-root.de, port: 32123
[edit] ting10_talk moon-edit page inclusion
ting10_talk
Write at the end of the page please (no rule).
recommendations for good tinging:
* add a line between contributions (1)
* separate urls by line shifts, so you can copy them easier
* new contributions go to the end of the text (2)
* open two windows, talk and document
* copy good content over to document, You have a second window for the document page open, have you?
* refactor the page a day after the ting on the wiki (3)
* integrate the results into relevant wiki-pages.
(1) make a line between contributions as it's easier to read and it gives you the possibilty ...
to think ...
and restart with a single lineshift.
(2) no rule but it's more easy for all readers like this as it archives the chronology.
(3) http://is-root.de/wiki/index.php/TingWiki
proposed topics
* wiki-node blitz-party (making wiki-nodes all over wikilandia)
participants
* ma: MattisManzel
* F: Fabi
* e: eva
* no: nononono
* Tom: Thomasz Dombrowolski
* g: greg
we need to sign as exporting the page to wiki the colours get lost.
----
test by mattis and eva
eva: hello! mattis, where are you?
ma: Howdy: Cool. Mi piache un sacco. Sei proprio brava Eva!
eva: in cosa?
ma: Greek geekdom, brava sei.
eva: anche tu non sei male!
ma: vero.
questo possono leggere tutti chi hanno moon-edit e hanno fatto un log-in su is-root.de. Abbiamo un modo da esportare la pagina sul wiki - e li lo possono legger tutti (con un browser)
eva: quindi non ti devo scrivere le cazzate?
ho capito.
ma: I colori vengono perso esportando il testo, per quel motivo scrivo il sign.
eva: ma qui non c'e' niente da esportare.
ma: non anchora. Domani sera 22:00 CET e il ting. Gli accenti non funzionano anchora (poveri franchesi)
eva: allora cosa dovrebbero dire i greci?!
ma: uup, aeh, si.
eva: provo a scriverti con i caratteri greci e vediamo se si legge?
ma: trial and error, right, non costa niente (aparte di tempo, quasi). Posso esportare per farti vedere?
eva: il greco non funziona. prova ad esportare. come si fa?
stai esportando?
ma: provo, ma problems. E anchora piutosto nuovo questo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mattis: hoi Fabi
Fabi: Moin everyone!
mattis: is noch nicht so weit. Kannst auf Kanälen, wo man dich leidet und wo ich noch nicht gespamt habe, büschen Reklame machen?
Fabi: Ich haeng nur auf #moin rum...
I did not understand today's topic.
ma: Lion proposed a wiki-node blitz, commonly making wiki-nodes on wiki still lacking one.
F: Sounds like Blitzkrieg...
ma: flammifer turned it into party, I turned it into blitz-party, but blitz is stupid, let's forget it, kind of an online flashmob.
F: and what are wiki nodes?
ma: a synapsis for every wiki where it determines who are the neighbors of the wiki. google wikinode, you'll be surprised how many there are, surf them a bit.
F: neigboring wikis is a quite ... undefined term. Especially because we don't have any support to get closer to our neighbors (wikis).
ma: yes, but its good like that. The community finds out, the wiki-nodes are a selfcontroling graph structure.
F: I don't belive there is a graph. I think most wikis are blind about the rest of the world.
ma: we can rank the neighbor by signs of comminity members. This rank triggers the near recent changes, so the community dynamically watches it's own favorite neighborhood's changes.
F: Is this already implemented somewhere? Or ony a nice wish?
ma: not yet. I don't f*** understand this rss stuff.
F: hehe
ma: But there is a page, maybe you can get some rss going there.
http://is-root.de/wiki/index.php/Talk:RecentChangesOfOurNeighbors
F: Wiki RSS doesn't provide all information one may want. I started implementing a FilteredRC server some time ago. That notifies the subscribed wikis about changes of neighboring wiki pages. The RSS implementations are quite different and provide very different level of detail. Most things can be calculated if you know with what wiki engine you are talking. Things like the links the the diff, the history, ...
For good integration you need all these information.
...
I still think you need to add neigboring wiki pages to the own RC and not any kind of UnifiedRCs. UnifiedRCs simply grow too fast in most cases.
ma: best would be if the complete list of wiki-nodes came in (by some rss magic?) and the community would just have to sign their favorite ones. How they decide is their story. 5 votes each, only 1 vote, whatever. The neighbors on the wiki-node get ranked by the number of signs they have. On the NearRecentChanges you choose, show me the three most favorite wikis and it shows them - triggered by the wiki-node.
F: The question is: What do you/we want to achieve with all this
ma: It gives every community (as an entity?) the possibility to position itself in an interacting context and makes wikilandia double as ameboid as it already is. :)
F: positioning is not worth anything if there is no interaction.
ma: You gotta read the near recent changes and contribute on the neighboring wikis, sure. On community-wiki we have a near recent changes with meatball and Gründerwiki. I use them. Should just get a habbit all over.
F: I think we need to stick to one RC per wiki. Reading the same RC is the only thing keeping a wiki community together.
ma: not exchanging the recent changes with favorite neighbors changes. In addition. Every wiki still has its own rc's.
F: yes but having RC and NearRC are two different RCs. So not everyone is reading the same RCs.
And I think linking 4-6 RCs together simply gets too much in lots of wikis.
ma: the three on community are ok. No data overflow. btw - Your own rc's make part of the neighbours, I forgot. cw is on the near recent changes. You see your own rc's integrated kind of.
http://www.emacswiki.org/cw/Letzte_%c3%84nderungen_in_der_Umgebung
ma: hallo eva,
e: hallo mattis
ma: eva: Nice you came back. I left our little testing above. It looks better with something in it. Try f7 and then slide the history bar above to the left with you mouse, f7 again shuts it off again.
Fabi: think about the chonqed-wiki. If that would have been in moinmoin's neighborhood you would have gotten good ideas about despaming earlier. Making such a structure, a dynamical, ameboid structure is lif-essential for wikilandia. Don't you dare to ever think that now with a spam protected moinmoin 1.3.9 (?) this would be over. 's-a-just 'de beginning, man.
F: I agree that we need a better interconnection between the wikis. But I would suggest a different implementation.
ma: explain to a simple mind like me, please.
F: I think the wikis should add other wiki pages to their own RC. And everyone is forced to see these changes.
ma: k, let's say you yourself are your best favorite neighbor. That are the classic rc's. You can cross "show + 1st favorite neighbor" it shows you one, "show + 2nd favorite neighbor", it shows you two ... Thing is to influence this list, you have to sign neighbors on the wiki-node and therefor you have to know what you are signing. So you go out and look at the neighbors - and that's already all there is to achieve (the rest happens k i n d a by itself :)).
F: I think each wiki is defined by its topic. The RC should contain only pages related to this topic - but not nessesarily only pages on this server. Just adding other wikis is not what one wants IMHO.
ma: hi no. Non sono propprio d'acchordo con le due ore, sei?
nononono: hallöle !!! ist das spanisch?
ma: Italienisch, ich bin eigentlich nicht so ganz einverstanden mit den zwei Stunden.
no: stimmt, hätt ich eigentlich "hören" müssen ;) das mit den zwei stunden kann ich (ein bischen) verstehen; aber nur ein bisschen ;)
ma: rollt ihr noch lachend am Bode, dann lassen wir sie noch drauf. Oder seid ihr fertig?
no: davon kannst du ausgehen :) aber der höhepunkt war doch das durchschauen der alten ekel-bilder ;)
ma: bei mir alles im Rahmen des letzen zerschossenen partitiion tables verschwunden.
no: ja sowas ist echt terror. hatt ich gottseidank noch nie (klopf auf holz) ;)
aber ich weiss von anderen, bei denen die daten-rettung in eine monster-arbeit ausgeartet ist.
F: das kommt davon wenn man das Backup nach /dev/null macht...
no: LOL !!!
F: Geht zwar schneller aber beim Ruecksichern gibts manchmal Probleme...
no: so, mutante und ich gehen jetzt erstmal thailändisch essen... ich wünsch euch einen schönen abend !!!
F: 'nen Guten!
no: danke !!!!
ma: yo. Guten Hunger.
Tom: hello. I'm alive..
ma: only a programmer alive is a good programmer.
ma: that is cool, hi tom.
Tom: what's up here...
ma: we lost c.h23.org. The export to s-23 wiki in 2 steps works. What's up on your front?
Tom: not much with ME recently, oh.. probably not, I'll check (technorati is not new to me).. I was doing some genetic / giving some lectures on
ma: you read technorati: moonedit
mutante did not install the version with the sorting by date and name yet: how does it work, we had it on the old server, but I couldn't figure out.
Tom: ok.. Sorting would be nice with option.. that was sort first by pw or not, second by name..
ma: indeed:) and by last edit, important (wiki recent changes like)
by size would be possible but stupid.
Tom: actually if you typed "djoin (filelistS) no" it would sort by size.. that
shouldn't be as a hack, but it was possible to sort by size in that special
version
ma: You have an overview of sphere.pl, any people enthusiastic on moon-edit to collaborate with over there?
Tom: you mean from sphere.pl / my university ?
ma: I remember the first, the wild days, when everybody freaked out on moon-edit.
Tom: hehe.. I think folders will help here.. I could create "newbies" folder,
for people to try ME for the first time.. maybe rename it to "oldies" after a while..
ma: forget it. Do not try to extend moon-edit to a wiki, hook it up with wiki. When the storm is over wiki is as much better as moon-edit is when the storm blows.
Tom: ok.. any interesting news from Venice ? :)..
I thought you were in Italy recently..
ma: Venice? Ah, outsides you mean, no.
sure, forgot, eva is in here, speaks greek and japaneze.
I'm still here, yes. - eva, still in?
Tom: eh.. when ME-like app will be nothing new, people will be bored again :P
maybe that's why I'm bored with life today.. I'm usually not bored when
I have new idea.. today I don't have one ...
ma: make contents, refactor, the old game :)
you are bored because you do not have the fucking balls to opensource moon-edit. that's why your are bored, because nothing happens, thats why.
ah.. boredom is pretty boring...
ma: this could be part of something that is the antithesis to boredom.
sry, mate, I do not mean bad, you know.
Tom: sure.. I'll be in a second window.. sometimes looking back here if something is going on..
ma: we'll look that throug befor exporting to the wiki.
+ tom do you use skype? mattismanzel my id, reccommended.
F: btw I wrote a moonedit action in MoinMoin recently. But it is not integrating nicely. You have to do svsavetxt and hit the action again to reimport the page into the wiki. yould be nicer if you either could do this from moonedit or moonedit would automagically do it as soon as noone edits the page anymore.
Tom: hi Fabi. what is MM ? ok. nice, oh.. like auto-svsavetxt
F: moonedit would need to call some external code submitting the page content. ME is written in Java right now?
Tom: what do you think about MoonEdit Java + wiki ? no.. it's C, but I wrote simple Java applet later.. it has less features than ME, but still: it is an applet.
ma: like a day after or so one should disconnect the two systems. The inclusion doesn't transfer wikisyntax right now, writing
* ...
doesn't turn a list for example. That should change, when the two get disconnected.
F: I think a cmdline interface would be nice. and a system to call external programms on events. At least as long as it is not OSS.
Tom: oh.. it's possible.. yeah I think with open-source idea a little.. but not decided yet.. It's just I have two visions for ME.. and wiki-usage is not yet clear to me.
ma: take your time. When is a mac version coming? That's more of a pain in the ass than the closed code right now btw.
Tom: I'm still waiting for a Mac... and Mac version is in question now..
F: For use in wikis you need the following features:
* Wiki has a button that locks the page and sends it to the moonedit server.
* after editing is finished (different possible implementations) the page is send back to the wiki where a new revision is created and the page is unlocked.
Tom: do you need history feature in moon-edit for wiki ?
F: Wikis are not prepared for such kind of history. It would be interesting to implement such an wiki. But for simply integerate ME into existing wiki engines it is easier to simply through away the history.
Tom: That's why I'm thinking about moon-edit for wiki as Java applet.. you will click [edit] and simple applet will appear..
ma: the history here with f6 and f8 is more precise than wikis, you can track back every letter.
F: ma: I don't think this is what you want in most wikis. If your edits are restricted to one person a time, letters are not of interest. So you have less single revisions you can compare.
ma: right.
Tom: How often multiple simulataneus users want to edit page in wiki at once ?
F: If you simply use ME as a wiki editor: more or less never. But this advantage of ME is to change the way you edit. So you edit together and not in parallel.
Tom: oh I know what you mean: using ME people will change their habits (new possibilities etc..)
F: That'S why I think starting an ME session doesn't have to be an replacement for regular editing. But can be a bit more complicated, because you have to get all the people together anyway.
ma: edit conflicts on wiki are rather rare where I edit. Making concentrations of editing, like the tings are, using the adequate tool in the right time and switching back to another on time is the thing. rythmn. appointments.
Tom: ok, actually any reason is good if it's something new for users..
F: but ME and wiki would interact more fluidly if all the pages could reside in the ME server and would get locked in the wiki if someone start editing them in ME. On the other hand the ME server would need to honor the wiki locks.
On the other hand I don't know how much fun it is to ahve several thousand documents in a ME server. The file listing would get unusable.
ma: tings could be permanent 7/24. university-ting, city-ting, moin-developers-ting, cat-owners-ting, ..., 7/24, you just watch what's going.
F: ma: I'm already said: may be IRC is better suited for some use cases...
ma: irc at least has the robots which are cool.
but else it suc atlantis, right.
F: ME still lacks a programmable interface.
ma: as its not open-source, know.
F: nope, it could offer such interface even while being closed source.
ma: ah ya? cool.
F: you don't need to recomplile your IRC client to run Perl/Python scripts in it.
Tom: basically CGI is all you need (perl/pyton could be called from cgi-like interface)
F: yep or even a comamnd line interface.
Tom: oh sure.. there is "shell", and there was "svshell" once, but I disabled it, because of security issues.. although server-side scripts should be ok (yeah, only triggered from clients, not written)
F: hehe, good idea. But those are triggered by the user. ME would need events trigged by: start editing, stop editing, svsavetxt, save, ...
Tom:
idea for server changes:
* configuration file with:
...
for example:
start_edit lock_wiki %2 "start" %1
and when you type
"start_edit \\F"
^ current file name
in ME it will execute appropriate command line at server-side.
what do you think?
F: I would just number the parameters. So that each command has a fixed set of parameters.
start_edit would have "filename, user" so %1 is the filename and %2 the username.
Tom: or even simpler idea...
just create "./mescript" batch in server directory
now, when you type:
svscript %1 %2 %3..
it will execute:
mescript %1 %2 %3..
F: I would not offer svscript. These scripts are only called if the proper event happen. So the user cannot take any influence on the scripts beeing called except the normal usage of the server.
Tom: oh.. ah.. so I understand the problem know.. I thought events would be triggered by users.. but it is not the case.
F: They are triggered by the user but only indirectly. Offering scripts that can simply triggerd
by the user is a special case that would work via Scripts->Enter command
Tom: hmm.. but server generates some events too...
F: That is no problem as all scripts would only run on the server.
Tom:
Server events:
* create filelist (could be scripted as well, take sorting order as parameter)
* start session
* svsave/svsavetxt = auto-save (?)
* end session (everybody leaves)
* user connects/disconnects <-\
* user joins session/leaves session <-- that two are the same F: that's ok
* command executed by user via "Enter command"
tom: ok
F: In theory we could simply always call the same scripts with different parameters.
tom: yup.. like I said: "./mescript"
F: or use a fastcgi interface to save the invokation time
I don't know how difficult is is to build the server side into a C program.
tom: For Fast CGI ?
F: Yup.
tom: (away for a while)
greg: hello everybody
tom: hello
F: Moin greg!
g: I'm joining you from Quebec City, Canada :-)
ma: hi greg, where are you (continent)?
g: Quebec City, Canada, North America (N46'49" W71'11")
is everybody in this ME session located in Germany?
Tom: I am not :)
ma: I'm German in Italy right now. Geocode rightway, greg, you saw the map, did you?
g: which map?
ma: don't remember which ting it ws, maybe one of the ones that got los, nice map: Cologne, Gdansk, Venice, ting session participants that day.
g: you mean, a map of all the participants of "ting"?
haven't seen that map, nope
I'll take a look on the is-root.de site
ma: we lost some ting 5, 6 with the old server, bad luck. a week ago.
g: sorry to hear that :-) I agree that a geomapping service to show participants' location would be swell
so are ting sessions dedicated to exploring the possibilities of collaborative text editing software, like MoonEdit, SubEthaEdit, etc.?
ma: no not yet. there are just tings. I'm interested.
ma: anybody with it on a wiki-node-party? Seems like saturday lion joins in. Making wiki-nodes. wiki-node-ting1 maybe?
Fabi -> bed
n8
ma: n8 fabi
g: cheers, I'm off
ma: next ting on sunday 18:00 UTC, bye greg.
Tom: bye
ma: n8 tom.
